August 28, 2007...4:00 am

YA or Adult?

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I’m having the strangest sense of deja vu — like I’ve spoken on this subject before. But I can’t remember and a cursory glance at the blog archives hasn’t helped me, so here goes:

(Update: found it!)

Serenissima asks:

Since Amy is in college, was part of the marketing plan for SSG and UTR to crossover to YA?

Bantam Dell is an adult publisher, and the books have been written with that in mind, so the marketing has been aimed primarily at adult audiences. However, the folks at my publisher are incredibly, incredibly savvy about the marketplace, so they’re aware of the potential. After all, very few teens read exclusively YA novels. (I certainly didn’t!)

We’ve been lucky to develop a great audience in the teen market as well, and got named to the NYPL Books for the Teen Age for the debut. I’m THRILLED that teens have appreciated the books the way they have. Surprised? Not necessarily (most teens read up, and I imagine quite a few high schoolers are curious to see what happens in college). I do think the new covers are more “youthful” and everyone involved is aware of the teen audience that the books have. I’ve even seen bookstores that have that prerogative cross shelve. This makes me happy. The more folks that are exposed to my work, the better. Yet overall, my SSG books are adult books in content, publishing, positioning, and marketing.

I’m kind of curious as to just how old a YA protagonist can be without scaring off agents/editors. (Seems like 15 or 16 from the stuff I’ve read in that genre.)

My advice: make them teenagers. I can’t think of a YA book where the characters weren’t teens. I’ve seen a few where they were in college, but they were usually freshman or at the most, sophomores (or would-be sophomores, as in the case of Scott Westerfeld’s PEEPS), so 18-19 is probably your upper limit. I wouldn’t make them much younger than 15, or you’re looking at MG novels. Remember, most kids read up.

When I started writing Rampant, I was very consciously trying to break into the YA market, so I looked at teen TV shows, where all the characters start out at 15/16, and made Astrid 16. There are two other main characters in the book. One is 18, one is 15. I wanted the book to be solidly YA, and I think the issues I’m dealing with in that book are much more YA-related than in SSG. (More on that below.)

However, you’re not necessarily scaring them off. I’ve heard of at least two novelists in the past two years who wrote college-aged books and signed with agents who promptly asked them to rewrite the books set in high school instead. I do believe that you are opening yourself up in the market if you do that.

Having written a manuscript with a college-age protagonist who has college-age issues, I’m trying to figure out how best to pitch it to agents. Just curious on how you dealt with that issue in your endeavors.

My characters are all seniors in college by necessity. That’s the year you get into secret societies. When I was first developing the book, I spoke to a YA author friend who told me that she thought that 21 was too old for YA. Her opinion, and I’m inclined to agree with her, is that the situation with 21 years olds is very different. You’re dealing with people who have been adults for several years, with all of the responsibilities and rights that entails, can legally drink, have lived outside their parents’ houses (and often control) for several years. I have YA writer friends who get nasty letters because their books feature “underage drinking” and “underage sex.” Well, my characters aren’t actually underage for any of those things. They are truly young adults.

Which is not to say that they don’t have issues with their parents. But older adults have parental issues as well. It’s just a different scene, in so many tiny ways and several big ones as well. My protagonist isn’t being a rebel, a bad girl, or– most notably– a law-breaker if she goes into a bar and orders a martini. The fact that her roommate is basically living with a boyfriend isn’t particularly shocking. The list goes on and on.

My agent (genius that she is, she shopped it to both YA and adults houses) did get a few rejections from YA houses who loved the book but thought it were too old for the YA market. One YA house wanted to buy it if we’d make the characters freshmen and — wait for it — teenagers. (And yes, we got offers from YA houses as is.) We ended up selling it to an adult market and I couldn’t be happier there. I can’t say how the books would have changed if written for a young adult market. We’re three books in at this point, so it’s tough to imagine back that far.

What I do know is that now, in ROS(B), Amy is twenty-two. She has a lot more in common, both in experience and in outlook, with the protagonist of The Devil Wears Prada or The Nanny Diaries than she does with someone in high school. (Though Bella is getting married, right? So she’s totally got Amy trumped, because I can guarantee you right now, there are no wedding bells at the end of SSG.)

It’s interesting though, to move from Amy to a character like Astrid, who is six years younger, and a whole world away in terms of experience. Astrid’s never been away from home before, and to Amy, Eli is home. And that’s just the tip.

17 Comments

  • Quick thought before I head to the airport for Robin’s book release party.

    We’ve had this conversation before and I don’t know what happened to the link since I moved blogs.

    I don’t think you quite agree with me on the importance of VOICE in a YA novel.

    I’d say — read the first sentence of the first Harry Potter, the first sentence of Lemony Snicket and the first two sentences of The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe.

    Tell me if you see something in common in the VOICE.

    I think it is AS important as character age, which I agree needs to be a teenager.

  • Diana Peterfreund

    Hey, Patrick! Have fun at Robin’s party!

    No, I don’t agree with you. It’s a theory that presupposes that there is no voice to speak of in any novel that is not YA. And the voices are so very different across the spectrum in YA. Is the writing style of Ally Carter similar to Stephenie Meyer similar to Caroline B. Cooney? No, of course not.

    In addition, I have no idea what the examples you posted have to do with YA novels. None of those books are YA novels. They are all children’s fantasy books — particularly children’s fantasy in a particular tradition where the two modern ones owe a lot to the style of Lewis, Eager, Dahl, etc.

  • I am loving hearing more about Astrid :) I can’t wait. Seriously!

    And I do totally agree with you that the age matters with a YA. Not necessarily the content, but what the teenager DOES with the content is very important. And that the voice can be all over the place, as long as it sounds like a teenager SOMEWHERE!

  • Diana Peterfreund

    You know, I was just thinking about this and I don’t think I have *any* teenage characters in the SSG books so far. There’s one in the third one, but up until this point, there hasn’t been a single teenager in the entire series. The youngest character so far is Jenny, and she was 20 in the first book.

  • Diana Peterfreund

    Byt he way, to clarify what Patrick and I were discussing earlier, it’s not that I do not think Voice is important in a YA novel — I just don’t think it’s any more or less important than it is in any other novel.

    This goes back to a post Patrick did a while ago saying that Plot was the most important aspect of a thriller and Character was the most important aspect of a romance and Setting is the most important aspect of… I thin it was SF? etc. But the thing is: YA isn’t a genre. It’s a marketing term. There are YA thrillers and YA romances and YA anything else.

    And voice is paramount, no matter what genre you are dealing with…

  • I found this post very interesting because I’ve thought all along that the SSG books were YA! (I say this as someone who’s older than the target audience for YA but reads quite a bit of it.) Several times in bookstores I’ve got there and been mystified that I couldn’t find them. I recommended SSG to a friend a couple of weeks ago, and said, “It’s YA but I keep finding it in the adult fiction section…” I think it’s because of the cover, which screams “YA” to me.

  • there are no wedding bells at the end of SSG

    Talk about spoilers!

    *Bill was hoping that his alter ego George would manage to snag Amy for a HAE ending in which the two of them set out together on the road to world domination…oh, wait, that’s Erica’s goal…well, let’s just say happiness in the three l’s: life, love, and literature*

  • Diana Peterfreund

    “It’s YA but I keep finding it in the adult fiction section…”

    Well, at least now you know why that is!

    Sad story from a well-meaning friend of mine. When my hardcover came out, she marched into her local bookstore and read them the riot act for not shelving it in the YA section “where it belonged.” They did — moving it from the co-oped front tables to spine out on the shelves in the YA section, where I imagine they remained. Sigh.

    A lot of booksellers have told me the covers remind them of the gossip girls, which apparently fly off the shelves, so woo hoo! I think “headless girls” are popular in all women’s fiction these days. (I always wonder what character is supposed to be on the cover of the books. Amy would never wear an outfit like that. ;-) )

    Bill, a lack of weddings bells does not preclude your proposed finale. But seriously, you’re looking at six months between the end of UTR and the end of the series. You think that’s time enough for a wedding? As a person planning a wedding, I am flummoxed by the notion!

  • Diana:

    Interesting post, thanks. I’ve been thinking of the SSG books as YA as well, because of the covers (and because when I’ve seen them, it’s been on front tables, not in any section). Wouldn’t matter much to me one way or the other, though, as I read both.

    My book’s pretty solidly YA, I think, with a 15-almost-16 heroine.

    BTW, just have to throw out that my great-grandmother’s name was Astrid. Straight outta Norway. :)

  • Diana Peterfreund

    That’s interesting to me, Susan, especially since i know you have been reading this blog since before the paperbacks came out. I don’t think the original covers look remotely YA.

    At times, I think people reading the blog or industry loops i’m on know how obsessed I am with YA novels, so they just assumed.

  • Diana:

    [At times, I think people reading the blog or industry loops i'm on know how obsessed I am with YA novels, so they just assumed.]

    You know? This might be true. You’re right, on consideration I did read this blog before the paperbacks–actually well before the hardbacks. I was reading about 6 months before the release, I think. Maybe it’s just that in my naivete I connected “young protag” with “YA”, not really thinking that college didn’t count as that. Hum.

    Ah well. I still consider you one of my inspirations for switching to YA, so there.

  • Diana Peterfreund

    That’s okay, Susan! I’ll take the compliment!

    I think that my obsession with YA literature (cough *Scott Westerfeld* cough cough) is well-documented on this blog, and I was developing Rampant on and off starting just a few months after selling SSG, so I talk A LOT about YA, about what I’m reading about YA, learning about YA, etc. I was being very analytical about breaking into that market, since getting feedback from YA publishers that SSG was NOT YA — so I wanted to find out what was.

    It’s funny. I’m on a list with a bunch of established YA writers, and when I finally sold my YA, we joked that I was really a member of the club now.

  • Great post, thanks!

    (And I’m an Uglies fan too. So happy that Scott Westerfeld’s adding another book to the ‘trilogy’.)

  • I picked them up for my niece who is a college freshman this fall. Seemed to me to be the perfect books for someone heading off to college or finishing up high school (as well as for adults). My niece loved the covers – which are fabulous – and was thrilled to get started. The perfect gift!!

  • Isn’t ALL genre labeling just marketing tools?

    How do you define genres?

    See, I thought everything below adult was considered YA.

    I think the reason why people think SSG should be YA is because Amy is still dealing with school issues, which labels her NOT an adult.

    I’m not saying that YA has voice to the exclusion of other books having it. It’s a matter of emphasis. I’m not saying there’s a particular voice for YA either.

    Dean Wesley Smith explains this much better than I ever will. He’ll be at the http://www.scwg.org conference in January. Definitely a speaker worth hearing.

  • Diana Peterfreund

    Hey, Patrick! How was the signing? I’d say to give Robin a hug for me but I know she doensn’t like that. Did you finally meet the famous Annette?

    I think that on some level, genre is a marketing term (such as shelving Gabaldon in romance because they think she sells best there), but genres also have specific conventions having to do with storylines.

    Mysteries, for example, involve a crime that is solved over the course of the story. Suspense/thrillers are similar, but usually involve a bad guy that is known to the audience, even if not the characters in the book. Romance, of course, is about people falling in love.

    Is genre absolute? Of course not. You wouldn’t see people getting into such fights about what makes a romance a romance or an SF and SF and not a slipstream/alt history/younameit if it were.

    BUT… YA is not a genre. YA *has* genres that mirror the genres in adult literature. YA romance or sff or thrillers or whatnot are subsets of their overarching genre. You can enter a YA novel that’s a romance into the RITA awards. Not just any YA novel But one that’s a romance. I’m a member of Fangs, Fur, Fey, a blogging group for writers of urban fantasy. Rampant is an urban fantasy. a YA urban fantasy.

    “Below adult?” You mean for younger readers? No. There are perfectly good terms for that, and they aren’t YA. It’s called “Children” or sometimes “Juvenile.” Picture books are not YA. “Young Readers” are not YA. “Chapter books” and “Middle Grade” are all not YA. I remember when the sixth Harry Potter book came out, it was classified as YA, *not* MG, as the others had been. This was a big deal at the time.

    YA *means* “young adult.” Emphasis on the “adult.” It is a subset of adult literature, entirely separate from children’s literature. This is why most stores have separate children’s sections (usually divided out very physically from the rest of the bookstore), but YA fiction is shelved elsewhere, in with the adult books. (and yes, there is cross shelving, but this is hardly new OR isolated to Children’s/YA). Go to your local bookstore, and you’re likely to see warning labels on the YA shelves about the book containing mature content. It’s because they are NOT children’s books.

    When I was a kid, we had a “children’s reading room” in the library, but once you’d read Ramona Quimby, you’d pretty much grown out of their selection. That’s why you have programs like “Books for the Teen Age” which, by the way is decided upon by “young adult librarians” — a different group entirely from “children’s librarians.” Look at organizations like VOYA and YALSA. YA is decidedly different from “Children.”

    I don’t know how “school” could label someone “not an adult,” but I could ask my aunt, who is a year younger than my mother and getting her BA this year. ;-) Or perhaps my 25 year old brother, who is back in college after a tour of duty with the US Navy. Or my fiance, who is signing up for classes as we speak.

  • Diana Peterfreund

    Woo hoo! Longest comment EVER!


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